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Author Topic: Help with argument?


Roy Batty
Hydrogen
Posts: 1
Help with argument?
on: July 3, 2017, 12:53

Hi,
I would describe myself as a militant atheist, however, I am struggling to come up with a sufficiently withering response to people who say "what's the harm in religion, if it makes people feel better?"
Any advice would be much appreciated.



stuart-
redford
Boron
Posts: 8
Re: Help with argument?
on: July 4, 2017, 15:18

Hi,
It's a little difficult to answer when the religion and degree of conviction in the person is not known.
What people actively engage in, can range from a two hour singing contest with a sermon that's largely secular, then forget about it until the following Sunday... Or... Complete devotion and have every logical, reasoned thought emptied from their heads and replaced with Magical intervention, fear, the need to 'enchant' food before eating and genuine excitement when some unqualified nut job with a shovel finds Noah's Ark for the tenth time.

"what's the harm in religion, if it makes people feel better?" .....This statement can only come from an individual's selfish, warm fuzzy delusion... A perfect example of ''Ignorance is bliss''. What people believe and the conviction they have in it, can and does affect everyone ..

What's the harm ?.......
It gets a pussy grabbing nutter elected to the oval office, through the VP being a young earth creationist and bringing the Christian vote.
Education is now screwed in Turkey.
Hindus, Christians and Muslims are kicking the shit out of each other in India and Pakistan.
Devout Catholics are trained to have a self persecution problem that can only be cured by more catholicism.
The self preservation instinct all animals have, can be bypassed by the Quran and replaced by matadome and the promise of everlasting life in a position of honour.
JW's risk and sometimes kill their own, including children by withholding medical care and justify this through interpretation of one passage in a book.
The Middle East is FUBAR through divided religious interpretations of a single book.
Catholics banning contraceptives in Africa has killed how many with AIDS?
Google Female Genital Mutilation and have a read.
Encouraging people to pray for cures of physical ailments including cancer, aids, broken bones etc and a cure for a sick bank balance................. How can any of these things make people ''feel better''

It's possible to fill the page with the harm created by religious convictions without referring to the vast list of historical screwups. I doubt any of these will help you in an argument as each individual will sidestep each one in turn by, ''that's not what i believe'' and you are left with the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy.
Every believer has pruned and twisted their own belief into an afterlife insurance policy of their own making. To expose each fallacy in turn is the only way, getting them to admit the fallacy is the hard part.

You don't have to be an atheist to see the harm religions do... all you need is the is the News.

I hope this helps, but without more info it's the best i can do.....Good luck.



Alcuin
Administrator
Posts: 1007
Re: Help with argument?
on: July 5, 2017, 12:25

I don't think I can add much to Stuart's clear and concise response. I would just add that it is important to distinguish between superstition, beliefs, traditions and religion.

Superstition about god(s) is just as wrong as that of witches or any other superstition.

Beliefs, like opinions (if there is any difference), should be challenged, not believed religiously. Beliefs should only ever be held to the degree they are supported by reason and evidence. Belief is a matter of degree and not absolute.

Traditions can be wrong no matter how old or well established and regardless of whether they are dictated by religious dogma or some other dogma. Child genital mutilation, inferiority of women in dress or in law, religious education in one religion more than others and many other traditions (sometimes endorsed or enforced through religion) are morally wrong.

Religion should be separate from the state. It has no business in morality (e.g dictating opinion on abortion or women's rights); law (sharia, Talmudic courts, eruvs, etc tend to undermine the principle of 'one law for all'); science (creationism); and especially not in education (faith schools, sectarianism).

On Al-Jazeera today an interviewer took a guest to task when he suggested a parallel between Saudi influence in the UK and the UK's influence using the Prevent framework. The guest was arguing that Saudi Arabia may have been suggesting that Sharia law and Islamic society is an alternative to Western Democracy. He suggested that the Prevent strategy pushed Western ideology against Islam in a similar manner and it was simply a battle of ideas. However, child genital mutilation contravenes a child's rights whereas Prevent upholds them. All the Islamic law of which I am aware does treat women differently to men, in law. That isn't a battle of ideology. Most defenders of Islam insist that Islam and Sharia do not conflict with Western laws and democracy. They say child genital mutilation is traditional, not Islamic practice. The point about women is more problematic for them...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11250643/Sharia-law-guidelines-abandoned-as-Law-Society-apologises.html
Even the most moderate Muslims and Jews seem to put Halal and Kosher slaughter rituals before animal rights.



leo
Hydrogen
Posts: 2
Re: Help with argument?
on: July 25, 2017, 12:48

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Quote from Roy Batty on July 3, 2017, 12:53
Hi,
I would describe myself as a militant atheist, however, I am struggling to come up with a sufficiently withering response to people who say "what's the harm in religion, if it makes people feel better?"
Any advice would be much appreciated.

There is a huge harm in religion.

Religion is not about "believing in one god or another". Religion is a very well organized propaganda and subjugation of people to believe in specific god(s) and following specific dogmas, rules, rituals and religious laws.

"Religious laws" are very old, cruel and are absolutely incompatible with modern society and they are also controversial with civil laws of western countries.
Religious laws are against human rights, against freedom, against equality.
Still religious people try to force everyone to comply with their old-fashioned, harmful, unfair laws.

Religion oppresses women. Religion oppresses people of other religions and atheists. Religion is homophobic. Religion steals our freedom. Religion creates obstacles to science, technology and medicine. Religion is aggressive. The source of islamic terrorism is in religion, because terrorists base their attacks on their belief.

You want to believe in Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Zeus, Aphrodite, etc.? Please do. But stop forcing others! Stop propaganda. Stop pressing governments to create absurd laws that have no sense in modern society. Stop teaching religion in school. Let every child believe in whatever he or she decides: Santa, witches, ghosts, Jesus, Hercules or maybe not believe in any of this stuff.

Religion does not allow people to think freely and have their OWN opinion, if that opinion does not support the religious dogma. Religion is evil. Religion is a virus, it is cancer that keeps destroying people's society.

Why communist and nazi propaganda is not allowed and christian, muslim and judaic is?

One doesn't like eating meat. He/she is a vegetarian. And he/she says: I don't eat meat. The other doesn't like eating meat together with cheese. But instead of just saying that he/she says: I don't eat meat with cheese because MY RELIGION DOES NOT ALLOW ME.

This is not my humble opinion, this is a POWERFUL opinion of many people who share MY RELIGION. We are strong and our opinion is important and your opinion is not important, because your opinion does not come from religion.

But why do you guys don't eat meat with cheese? Do you have a reason for that? No, the only reason is because this is written in a 2000 years old book.

If you don't ware hijab, you will have trouble!
Why? Not because you will get cold without it. But because it is against your religion.

No harm in everyone believing in any god(s) he/she wants. Harm in forcing your believes on others. Why we don't allow sexist and xenophobic content in books and newspapers, but we do allow this in religious books and in religious teaching?

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