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Author Topic: Women & religion


Guest
Calcium
Posts: 1161
Women & religion
on: July 30, 2013, 13:57

"According to the code, women had only one duty:
Obey the father when unmarried, the husband when married and the son when widowed."

Any ideas as to which religion that might be?



Grumpy-
bloke
Neon
Posts: 18
Re: Women & religion
on: July 30, 2013, 21:17

All of them I would guess.



russell20
Calcium
Posts: 1575
Re: Women & religion
on: July 30, 2013, 21:53

Again I'm going for any of the Abrahamic religions.



Profane-
Jane
Calcium
Posts: 51
Re: Women & religion
on: July 30, 2013, 22:14

All the Abrahamic, monotheistic male dominated religions for a start - Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Meg Bowman early humanist in the last century created dramatic readings of quotations from many sources, before burning them. Internet search: youTube, then godfree4me videos
http://www.wws-gb.freeuk.com/MegBowmanQuotations.htm

Many sources of info on files & links London Feminist http://www.meetup.com/London-Feminist-Freethinkers/messages/boards/Freethinkers Meetup Group &

http://www.feminism.freeuk.com/Link.htm

Well you did ask 😀



Guest
Calcium
Posts: 1161
Re: Women & religion
on: July 30, 2013, 23:20

The most likely religion is going to be one of the Abrahamic ones, however, I'm actually reading a book about hindu mythology and this comes from there. It seems that it doesn't matter what religion it is, if you're a woman you're second class. 🙁



AdamZain
Calcium
Posts: 206
Re: Women & religion
on: August 3, 2013, 05:00

Well, I'd argue that this backs up the point I was making in another thread; that religion does not create these social ideas, but reflects the cultural ideologies and traditions of the time. Hence apparently unconnected religions have similar ideas about women, for example. Presumably, formalising these ideological notions into religious rules, taboos and customs helps to stabilise and control a society - which may have some benefits in certain circumstances - but it also has the side-effect of preventing societies from moving on to more advanced ideas as quickly as they otherwise could.

Which is why I would argue that we shouldn't blame religion for these notions, for example, by saying that women's oppression is down to religion - as that is an easy one for theists to counter with examples of secular oppression, but we can blame religion for holding back our development - by fossilising old, defunct ideologies.

Quote from Graham Martin-Royle on July 30, 2013, 23:20
The most likely religion is going to be one of the Abrahamic ones, however, I'm actually reading a book about hindu mythology and this comes from there. It seems that it doesn't matter what religion it is, if you're a woman you're second class. 🙁



Profane-
Jane
Calcium
Posts: 51
Re: Women & religion
on: August 3, 2013, 10:02

Quote from AdamZain on August 3, 2013, 05:00
Well, I'd argue that this backs up the point I was making in another thread; that religion does not create these social ideas, but reflects the cultural ideologies and traditions of the time.

This is the time hounoured excuse used by religious apologists.

Nothing is ever the fault of religion, they always shuffle it off onto 'culture' without considering what creates culture.

Religionists do not seem to understand that religious preaching and teaching, its doctrines and scriptures have created and dominated male supremacist cultures all over the world for three thousand years.

I am getting the feeling of deja vu on the last two issues on which I have posted. Have I been here before?



AdamZain
Calcium
Posts: 206
Re: Women & religion
on: August 15, 2013, 05:25

Clearly you have misunderstood my argument. It doesn't excuse anything. I was pointing out that, from the perspective of a non-religious person, religion cannot be seen as something outside of or greater than human culture (which would be the default religious view). So, it follows that religion - at least to a rational atheist, must be seen as part of human culture. It's also highly likely - I would say inevitable - that human culture pre-dated religion. Given that religion came from human culture, it is likely to reflect the culture of the era it came from.

Religions are usually evolutionary, not revolutionary, which is why they seem to endlessly recycle ideas - the story of the resurrection, for example, which was passed down from religion to religion until it reached the Romans. It seems logical to claim that religion is a formalised and coded representation of the dominant culture, and develops alongside it.

Of course, religion is also highly political; the Roman invention of Christianity is perhaps the most obvious example; also Muhammed's convenient 'revelations' whenever he needed to justify the behaviour of himself or his criminal gang. But politics is also part of culture, and new political movements, like new religions, tend to reflect changes in the wider culture, in which case putting the blame for the treatment of women on religion is putting the cart before the horse.

Even in cases where religion is revolutionary - perhaps Buddhism or Islam (?), the mechanism is similar, with a small group of people coming up with a 'new' theology, which then spreads to the wider culture. This is only likely to happen if the wider culture is in some sense prepared for it. So, for example, protestantism caught on because the wider society was already disgusted by the way the Catholic Church was carrying on - cultural change had made the society ready for the new religious ideas.

Where, however, we can blame religion itself, is that, by formalising cultural rules and fixing them on an everlasting omnipotent creator, it slows down a society's willingness to make social changes - it's a way of effectively fossilising a culture - as we have seen with modern Islam which is still managing to keep some parts of the world in a medieval state, and has even managed to reverse social development in some countries.

If you really think religion created culture, then I'm curious to know where you think religion came from in the first place. God? Nature? Space aliens? Where exactly did St paul's or Muhammed's ideas come from? Or L Ron Hubbard's for that matter? And why did their followers get hooked in? I would suggest that the cultural landscape played a big part in forming these faiths. And that includes attitudes towards gender and sexuality.

One way round the problem is to have a religion like the C of E, which believes mainly in tea, and keeps all other doctrine as vague as possible, which means it can quite easily change its mind about stuff and does not interfere much with cultural progress.

If you want to find the main culprit for gender and any other kind of inequality, I'd probably start by looking at agriculture, not religion, although even pre-agriculture, any 'equality' probably did not extend towards people from outside one's own tribe or social group, and genetic strategies no doubt played a big part in determining how an individual was treated within the group. To get true equality, you need philosophy and ethics - two recent inventions that grew and developed in highly religious societies.

Quote from Profane Jane on August 3, 2013, 10:02

Quote from AdamZain on August 3, 2013, 05:00
Well, I'd argue that this backs up the point I was making in another thread; that religion does not create these social ideas, but reflects the cultural ideologies and traditions of the time.

This is the time hounoured excuse used by religious apologists.

Nothing is ever the fault of religion, they always shuffle it off onto 'culture' without considering what creates culture.

Religionists do not seem to understand that religious preaching and teaching, its doctrines and scriptures have created and dominated male supremacist cultures all over the world for three thousand years.

I am getting the feeling of deja vu on the last two issues on which I have posted. Have I been here before?



unsuspecti-
ng
Hydrogen
Posts: 1
Re: Women & religion
on: September 6, 2013, 15:12

My book, THE UNSUSPECTING FETUS, now available on Kindle Amazon com. depicts a story about how Indian females are treated even in Catholic surroundings. The head of the family who was originally a Hindu, converted to the Catholic faith because it was here that he could conveniently overlord his wife and daughter, as he very well knew that this was a male dominated religion. His five sons subsequently, did all that he practised. And worst still the sons who were more educated than their father preferred to do what their uneducated father chose to propagate. The daughter, Eva, fell a victim to gendercide, feminicide, infanticide and attempted murder. The parents backed up their cultural backgrounds and histories with their religions and victimised their first-born daughter from all angles of this planet. I have critisized the Catholic religon in particular because as a baptized one I never ever once felt there was a so-called God smiling down on me. I never even got what I dealy wanted. So I took the opportunity to put them down in words. It's worth the read. Best regards, Unsuspecting

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