The Atheism UK (Mingle) Forum closed on 16th November 2020. Instead, Atheism UK has a page and two groups on Facebook.

Welcome Guest 

Show/Hide Header

Welcome Guest, posting in this forum requires registration.

Pages: 1 2
Author Topic: The End - How?


Mrs-
Cravatte
Calcium
Posts: 119
Re: The End - How?
on: April 9, 2014, 14:19

@Alcuin

That's ok Mrs C. I'm sorry I tried to address what you wrote.

Despite my boorish exasperation, I'm glad you took the trouble to address what I wrote. It's just have I absolutely disagreed with what you said! It happens - pax I hope.

@AZ

From your account, Marx and Feuerbach sound like a couple of thickos. It's fairly obvious, even to small feral children wandering the streets in Ilford, that the 'human essence' is a mixture of the individual and the social - at various levels - cellular, biological, family, social and societal etc.

Is that addressed to me or russell20? Marx and Feuerbach were introduced by russell20 to address the issue of an universal human nature.

Tell me more about these "feral children" - is that some sort of underclass, lumpen-proletariat as Marx might have said, ripe for culling?

Science and technology operate on both the social and the individual level - in terms of human thought and behaviour, that's enough to snooker religious nonsense, given the right conditions.

I am probably using this word incorrectly (and I would be glad to be corrected) but what about the "dialectic"? Is there no dialectical relation between humans and science and technology - i.e. they influence us, we create and mould them, they influence us, we create and mould them, ad nauseum. And who makes science and technology, AZ? And why did modern science arise in Western Europe, beginning in C17th? Why there, why then? Why didn't the Chinese do it first?
And what are the right conditions? May I suggest they are the socio-political conditions that humans create within history.

And it's not true to say that humans are as illogical as they are logical. They wouldn't be able to function if they were. Humans use logic almost all the time, for all sorts of basic things. But the logic so used is prone to a multitude of problems - biases, flawed assumptions etc., which means that although logic is a primary tool for achievement, it does not always work as advertised, nor do people (individually or in groups) necessarily realize that it hasn't worked.

So we're logical, but oops, so often very silly and, dang it, slip into the illogical.
Wouldn't be easier to say we are just constructed to be capable of logic but also the illogical.

Not many people seriously consider themselves to have no commonsense - which is just another word for everyday logic.

I think using "commonsense" as a synonym for logic may be confusing matters. The great majority of things we do on a mundane everyday level we hardly think about at all. And it seems pretty much the case that most of the decisions we make are made by our unconscious brains - not the slow, deliberating veneer of the conscious brain. Therefore, so it seems, it's that unconscious brain that makes the, oops, slip ups. And surely, that naughty unconscious brain must have evolved to be like that - no?

Major change coming from logical, scientific reasoning? - the industrial revolution, modern medicine and the reduction in infant mortality, the disastrous population explosion, the use of social media, mutually assured destruction, the principles underlying the UN declaration of human rights, anti-pollution legislation, and a couple of million other things.

That question mark at the end of the first sentence - are you saying that all the following DID NOT derive from "logical, scientific reasoning"? Because you list at least one double dumb dumb - "disastrous population explosion". Otherwise, I can't believe you think that all that list came solely from "logical, scientific reasoning". If you do, I can only ask whether you are some sort of fundamentalist 😕

The only thing as irrational as faith in God, is faith in Man.



Mrs-
Cravatte
Calcium
Posts: 119
Re: The End - How?
on: April 9, 2014, 15:28

Yeah, I'll say what I think the "essence" of humans is - it is EVERYTHING that humans have ever done. We are altruistic and horribly callous, we seek morality and are amoral, we are idealistic and we are Auschwitz. We are the most extraordinary of animals, and we are the scum of the Earth.

PS. I may not have mentioned but Mrs Cravatte is a bit of a misanthrope.

The only thing as irrational as faith in God, is faith in Man.



Sempsy
Calcium
Posts: 301
Re: The End - How?
on: April 10, 2014, 20:43

Quote from Mrs Cravatte on April 9, 2014, 15:28
Yeah, I'll say what I think the "essence" of humans is - it is EVERYTHING that humans have ever done. We are altruistic and horribly callous, we seek morality and are amoral, we are idealistic and we are Auschwitz. We are the most extraordinary of animals, and we are the scum of the Earth.

PS. I may not have mentioned but Mrs Cravatte is a bit of a misanthrope.

Oooh Mrs. Cravatte turns into a werewolf during a full moon! (sorry terrible joke on the word misanthrope)

Your earlier comment "And why did modern science arise in Western Europe, beginning in C17th? Why there, why then? Why didn't the Chinese do it first?
And what are the right conditions? May I suggest they are the socio-political conditions that humans create within history."

Well I would say that the Chinese and the Arabs did start the ball rolling but were then socio-politcally removed from the equation, by political and religious bodies ruling them at the time, but they contributed to the groundwork that was to expand in Europe when the conditions favoured each "discovery" in science - indeed I would guess that every nation has contributed to scientific progress at some point - and now we are at the point that has given us the scientific and logical means to discuss this on the internet! Science and religion and socio-political times got rid of the old gods, which are now seen as a joke in the majority, but science and logic are now saying that "meet the new god, same as the old god" can no longer be applied. I hope I have verbiated my thoughts correctly! If Galileo was alive today, I like to think he would indeed be doing the fandango!
😮



AdamZain
Calcium
Posts: 206
Re: The End - How?
on: April 11, 2014, 00:59

Why?

quote]Quote from Mrs Cravatte on April 4, 2014, 21:33
Look anyone serious abt getting rid of religion needs to have a theory for understanding and tackling human nature and society aswell - Marxism is one way.



Mrs-
Cravatte
Calcium
Posts: 119
Re: The End - How?
on: April 11, 2014, 14:09

Quote from Sempsy on April 10, 2014, 20:43
...
Oooh Mrs. Cravatte turns into a werewolf during a full moon! (sorry terrible joke on the word misanthrope)
😮

Arghhhh you have discovered my terrible secret!!!!! Although I have to say the condition is much better now that I have stopped menstruating. However ... even 'though I have experienced no menopausal ill-effects perhaps it has, nevertheless, turned me into a batty old hag who can be quietly ignored. (Little bit of feminism there, ignore it, it probably proves I'm batty)

Well I would say that the Chinese and the Arabs did start the ball rolling but were then socio-politcally removed from the equation, by political and religious bodies ruling them at the time, but they contributed to the groundwork that was to expand in Europe when the conditions favoured each "discovery" in science - indeed I would guess that every nation has contributed to scientific progress at some point ...

Yes, I didn't mean to ignore or diminish the contributions of other cultures. But you have taken my basic point - "was to expand in Europe when the conditions favoured each "discovery" in science". Not only expand, but develop eventually into a whole paradigm including the defintion of the scientific method. And what were those conditions in Europe - how about the development of capitalism? Mercantilism in late C17th was interested in anything that could get things from A to B faster and with greater profit.

I just can't stand anything that proposes that our species has some sort of inherent drive for discovery - we don't, we do what is to our advantage according to circumstances (especially in regard to survival, but also with regard to advantage within our societies, particularly where the society is distinctly stratified.)

The only thing as irrational as faith in God, is faith in Man.



Mrs-
Cravatte
Calcium
Posts: 119
Re: The End - How?
on: April 11, 2014, 14:21

Quote from AdamZain on April 11, 2014, 00:59
Why?

quote]Quote from Mrs Cravatte on April 4, 2014, 21:33
Look anyone serious abt getting rid of religion needs to have a theory for understanding and tackling human nature and society aswell - Marxism is one way.

I'm sorry I've genuinely lost the thread here.

In that quote, I mean basically that anyone or any group who thinks that religion can be eradicated WITHOUT having a sophisticated and comprehensive theory of how religion fits in and functions in terms of the whole of society and how humans function as social animals, and without addressing those things in a major way, is, frankly, being simplistic to the point of being imbecilic. I merely point out that Marxism is one theory ... chuck in any others, that's fine.

The only thing as irrational as faith in God, is faith in Man.



Sempsy
Calcium
Posts: 301
Re: The End - How?
on: April 12, 2014, 14:29

As I posted on one of your other threads, there is no utopia, no cornucopia, no magic bullet, no socio-political one size fits all solution to the worlds' problems, but religion certainly isn't the answer. For me, personally, I don't mind the political regime we are currently ruled by - at least we have this internet thingy to do and whinge on - would you prefer sharia law, nazism, communism or some other form of being ruled? I think not. Despite some errors, by and large, our forefathers/mothers fought for our freedoms the we now have the ability to exercise.



Mrs-
Cravatte
Calcium
Posts: 119
Re: The End - How?
on: April 13, 2014, 15:23

Quote from Sempsy on April 12, 2014, 14:29
As I posted on one of your other threads, there is no utopia, no cornucopia, no magic bullet, no socio-political one size fits all solution to the worlds' problems, but religion certainly isn't the answer. For me, personally, I don't mind the political regime we are currently ruled by - at least we have this internet thingy to do and whinge on - would you prefer sharia law, nazism, communism or some other form of being ruled? I think not. Despite some errors, by and large, our forefathers/mothers fought for our freedoms the we now have the ability to exercise.

Thank you, Sempsy. That was enlightening (I mean that seriously not sarcastically).

The only thing as irrational as faith in God, is faith in Man.



paulhemel
Hydrogen
Posts: 1
Re: The End - How?
on: August 16, 2014, 09:05

Religion is dying on its feet, gradually. Look how long it took to accept the Planets did not go round earth. Now we have had years of debate about Women bishops and priests and in the end they will say the church 'promoted' equality when all these years they have denied it.
You only have to study what the churches don't say as opposed to what they do say.
What do they say about killing in Wars? what do they say about the death penalty? what do they say about austerity? answer - very little. case rested.



AdamZain
Calcium
Posts: 206
Re: The End - How?
on: August 16, 2014, 16:38

and then there's ISIS.......



wheels5894
Calcium
Posts: 197
Re: The End - How?
on: August 20, 2014, 19:04

Quote from AdamZain on August 16, 2014, 16:38
and then there's ISIS.......

... unless this lot, is what it seems to be, an amoral, criminal gang intent on stealing as much wealth as it can for its own use. Think of it more like the mafia than a religion.



oneatheist
Neon
Posts: 17
Re: The End - How?
on: August 27, 2014, 09:20

For me, the rationale behind being an atheist, also precludes the possibility of superstition, fairies, ghosts, good luck charms, astrology .....

My great concern is what is left at the end and how some people will behave without the threat of eternal retribution. This for me means it is essential that education leads the way, as I think it is the development of rational thought that made me, and I'm sure many others, see the ridiculousness of god and religion.

My thinking is that as this life on earth is the only one we will ever get anywhere, lets work together to make it as good as possible for everyone. Every death is a complete termination, the end. If one tenth of the time wasted praying and acting out pointless rituals were put toward actually improving the world I think we could make it a much better place.



wheels5894
Calcium
Posts: 197
Re: The End - How?
on: August 27, 2014, 16:31

Quote from oneatheist on August 27, 2014, 09:20
For me, the rationale behind being an atheist, also precludes the possibility of superstition, fairies, ghosts, good luck charms, astrology .....

... although most theists will agree with you in most of the above. They ever agree that all but one gods are imaginary. They are all one god short of being atheists!

My great concern is what is left at the end and how some people will behave without the threat of eternal retribution. This for me means it is essential that education leads the way, as I think it is the development of rational thought that made me, and I'm sure many others, see the ridiculousness of god and religion.

If this is your greatest concern, then think of something else to be concerned about. With ISIS or IS or whatever they are calling themselves this week we see how barbaric people become when they believe in eternal retribution. Indeed, their barbaric acts are being done in the name of a god that they think wants this sort of thing. So if this is how people behave when they think there is eternal retribution, there's not a lot to fear from those who do not. Atheists and secularists on the whole don't perpetrate crime as much if the figures for the prison population in the USA I saw at one time are to be believed.

My thinking is that as this life on earth is the only one we will ever get anywhere, lets work together to make it as good as possible for everyone. Every death is a complete termination, the end. If one tenth of the time wasted praying and acting out pointless rituals were put toward actually improving the world I think we could make it a much better place.

Yes, this is the important bit - we have only one chance at life and only one lifetime to do what we want. If we miss the chance it is gone for ever. That's why atheists are so much more likely to be doing good things compared with theists who feel it is OK to kill in the name of their religion. Atheists just don't feel the need to kill for anything particular.



Cider
Calcium
Posts: 23
Re: The End - How?
on: January 3, 2018, 07:01

I feel the only way to rid our beautiful planet of toxic religions, is to rid the planet of the human race!. As the planet was rid of those magnificent creatures called dinosaurs (birds excluded!!) a visit from a comet or asteroid is needed!!. Which of course is the only way also to save our beautiful planet from US!!.

Pages: 1 2
Mingle Forum by cartpauj | ElegantPress by Theme4Press and SOFTthemes | Sponsored by Sasina Therapy
Version: 1.0.34 ; Page loaded in: 0.099 seconds.