The Atheism UK (Mingle) Forum closed on 16th November 2020. Instead, Atheism UK has a page and two groups on Facebook.


Warning: Illegal string offset 'signature' in /homepages/20/d676116640/htdocs/wordpress/wp-content/plugins/mingle-forum/wpf.class.php on line 911

Welcome Guest 

Show/Hide Header

Welcome Guest, posting in this forum requires registration.

Pages: 1
Author Topic: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?


MattR
Calcium
Posts: 156
Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 3, 2014, 13:27

Possibly the most tragic aspect of the recent cases of groups of men grooming and abusing young girls in Rotherham, Oxford and elsewhere is the systematic refusal to acknowledge the race and culture aspects of them. As long as the country turns its head from these questions, it is effectively saying it doesn't care if another young girl is gang raped. Apparently it is more important not to offend a particular demographic.

It has been darkly ironic that the media laid into the authorities in Rotherham for failing to tackle the problem due to fears of being called racist of Islamophic, but then those same media outlets refused to do anything more than pay lip service to those issues. An excellent example of this was a recent film on Channel 4 News where a reporter went to Rotherham, supposedly to pose these questions to local Asians. In reality it was just a platform for them to air their own grievances. One interviewee said it was unfair to focus on abuse by the Asian community since all kinds of people abuse children. That comment was allowed to go unchallenged. Of course it is technically correct, but it ignores the fact that crime statistics indicate that Asian men are at least 50 times more likely to be child abusers than the population as a whole.

In this context, I was really pleased to see an article in Saturday's Guardian (
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/31/muslim-community-street-grooming-nazir-afzal) where the issue was clearly acknowledged. Nazir Afzal of the Crown Prosecution Service, and himself a muslim of Pakistani-descent, said "we do have an issue with people of our ethnicity and we have to deal with it." Shaista Gohir, the chair of Muslim Women's Network UK acknowledged a lack of respect for women and girls in Pakistani communities.

In the same article, The Guardian also noted that the report into the Rotherham abuse 'accused Muslim leaders of "ignoring a politically inconvenient truth" by inisting there was not a deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls.' This was not mentioned by The Guardian in its original article on the report in August.

This new piece is just one article, and it was tucked away on page 19, but maybe its a sign the country is starting to confront a difficult and embarrassing topic?



russell20
Calcium
Posts: 1575
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 3, 2014, 20:08

You're right that this is only a beginning,but it is a welcome sign of a possible change nevertheless. However, there is a problem at the heart of the Asian community and it relates to their treatment of women as second class citizens, which in the Muslim communities is religiously inspired and thus remains one of the most intractable obstacles to equal status for women. Which in turn makes their ill treatment and rape that much more acceptable.



Sempsy
Calcium
Posts: 301
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 6, 2014, 19:08

2 points, the first being that I would conject a lot of people of "Asian" heritage are fed up of Pakistani's and others in that region being addressed as Asian only, thus tarring them all with the same brush and, secondly, the muslim communities in the west need to be made aware that the law of the land supersedes their outdated, flawed, misogynistic religious beliefs....



MattR
Calcium
Posts: 156
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 7, 2014, 11:48

Quote from Sempsy on November 6, 2014, 19:08
I would conject a lot of people of "Asian" heritage are fed up of Pakistani's and others in that region being addressed as Asian only, thus tarring them all with the same brush

I absolutely agree. However, I used that term because the relevant crime statistic used it (as Channel 4 reported it, "75 per cent were categorised as Asian"). My calculation that 'Asians' are 50 times more likely to abuse, was deliberately the most conservative calculation and based on the assumption that it includes all Asians (Indians, Chinese, etc). However, if the 'Asian' offenders in the crime statistics were exclusively of Pakistani heritage (which they almost certainly weren't), then I calculate that they (Pakistanis) are 211 times more likely to abuse.

Incidentally, I said above that they ('Asians') were "50 times more likely to be child abusers than the population as a whole". What I meant was 50 times more likely than the white population. I derived the numbers partly from the last census, which identifies the racial breakdown of the population.



russell20
Calcium
Posts: 1575
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 7, 2014, 18:16

Quote from Sempsy on November 6, 2014, 19:08
2 points, the first being that I would conject a lot of people of "Asian" heritage are fed up of Pakistani's and others in that region being addressed as Asian only, thus tarring them all with the same brush and, secondly, the muslim communities in the west need to be made aware that the law of the land supersedes their outdated, flawed, misogynistic religious beliefs....

"Muslims are the second least-likely of all religious groups to have been born in the UK, with the majority being born outside the UK; 46% were born in the UK, 39% were born in Asia (Pakistan - 18%; Bangladesh - 9%; India - 3%), 9% were born in Africa (Somalia - 2%; Kenya - 1%), and 4% were born in Europe outside the UK (Turkey - 3%, former Yugoslavian countries - 1%). "

As you can see not all Muslims in the UK are from Pakistan as they are from various countries so the term Asian is not inaccurate. If however, you were to say that the grooming gangs that have been successfully prosecuted were part of the Pakistani community that would be closer to being accurate.However, in Rotherham amongst those that were successfully prosecuted, were the owners of a Bangladeshi restaurant. Now you could say that the Bangladeshis that were involved are also Muslims and that would be true but it is also true to say that they are Asian as both they and the Pakistanis were originally from the Asian sub-continent. Now if you throw into that mix Hindus and Sikhs then you have 3 religious groups that self identify by their religion because that is what separates them one from the other when in fact all are Asian ether by the country of birth or descent. Apart from the 46% of Muslims that were born here, of course, as they are in fact British but ultimately of Asian descent.

Moreover, if the grooming gangs are referred to as Pakistani or Bangladeshi what of those within those groups that are not involved in grooming does that not discriminate against them ? The same could also be said of Muslims ( and yes the terms Pakistani and Bangladeshi and Muslim can be interchangeable ) that are not directly involved ( apart from the run of the mill misogyny allowed by their religion ) what of them ? This is not merely an exercise in semantics as we are talking about the public perception of an extremely serious and ongoing crime and we can do without vigilantism rearing it's ugly head with a built in justification based on nothing more than the assumption of guilt. Which would ultimately be built upon nothing more than ethnic differences.

As to your second point yes of course I agree but that is also something that needs to be aimed at all religions. But there is something deeply disturbing at the heart of the Muslim communities and the authorities seem to be at a loss on how to deal with it but pretending that doing so is an act of racism is blinding themselves to the reality of a religion that appears to want to be treated differently and yet complains when it is. So maybe just maybe it is time to dispense with the pretense and refer to these gangs as sexually and financially motivated criminals that emanate from a largely closed religious community which treat women as second class citizens and as a result perceive of their crimes against women as less than important. Especially when the women and young girls that they violate are seen as less than moral when compared to the idealised image they have been taught that Muslim women all supposedly aspire to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8304838/UK-MUSLIM-DEMOGRAPHICS-C-RE8-02527.html



Sempsy
Calcium
Posts: 301
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 13, 2014, 20:41

I can't argue with the figures, although my local knowledge would impair my jusdgement, but my point was that the term Asian also includes Chinese, Japanese, Philippinos etc. that would not normally be classed as muslims (I know, I know, I've left out Indonesia) - I bet they strongly dislike it when "Asians" is widely used in the media to describe muslim individuals and gangs committing crimes?

Scratch under the surface of my statement and what I am implying is that it's moslems committing the crimes we are talking about, not the sikhs or hindus or taoists etc. but the others are still tarred with the brush of "asian" - therefore, the religious identity of the perpetrators should be used and not the geographical background.



russell20
Calcium
Posts: 1575
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 13, 2014, 21:46

Quote from Sempsy on November 13, 2014, 20:41

Scratch under the surface of my statement and what I am implying is that it's moslems committing the crimes we are talking about, not the sikhs or hindus or taoists etc. but the others are still tarred with the brush of "asian" - therefore, the religious identity of the perpetrators should be used and not the geographical background.

I understand that Sempsy and I agree, in fact there is not much to argue about considering that the evidence bears that out. My real point however, is that there is a reluctance to criminalise their behaviour and imbue it with the religious overtones that it undoubtedly has. Moreover, when the authorities do belatedly act there is this almost palpable need to separate each grooming gang one from the other and ignore the appalling attitude Islam displays towards women which is the overriding ideology that actually links them one to the other. But that would mean criticising their religion and we can't have that can we !!!!!!!



Sempsy
Calcium
Posts: 301
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 13, 2014, 22:35

Here, Here!



Guest
Calcium
Posts: 1161
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 14, 2014, 14:43

the appalling attitude Islam displays towards women which is the overriding ideology that actually links them one to the other. But that would mean criticising their religion and we can't have that can we !!!!!!!

And this is the big problem (actually, it's two big problems), the way nearly every religion but most emphatically islam regards women and the inability to criticise religion because of the abject kowtowing to religion that habitually takes place (the proposed new law being pushed by the tories will make this even worse).



russell20
Calcium
Posts: 1575
Re: Child Grooming Gangs - Light At The End Of The Tunnel?
on: November 14, 2014, 17:57

Quote from Graham Martin-Royle on November 14, 2014, 14:43

And this is the big problem (actually, it's two big problems), the way nearly every religion but most emphatically islam regards women and the inability to criticise religion because of the abject kowtowing to religion that habitually takes place (the proposed new law being pushed by the tories will make this even worse).

Exactly, but what is this new law ? is it an extension or revision of that anti democratic nonsense, Section 5 of the Public Order Act ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment,_alarm_or_distress

Pages: 1
Mingle Forum by cartpauj | ElegantPress by Theme4Press and SOFTthemes | Sponsored by Sasina Therapy
Version: 1.0.34 ; Page loaded in: 0.089 seconds.